Thubten Samdup
Thubten Samdup has been on holiday here in McCleod Ganj with his family. Unfortunately for him, though, he is staying in the same guest house as Larry and I, affording us the perfect opportunity to disturb his vaction bliss and pick his brain about some of the current issues in the Tibetan movement. Of course, anyone who knows Thubten knows he never stops working as his long list of credentials will prove: Co-Editor of WTN, Administrator of the TSG list, Former North American Representative to the Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies and Former Director of Tibetan Institute of Performing Arts.
So, from high atop the Paljor Gakyil guesthouse overlooking McCleod Ganj, and with the echo of the cars and taxis honking below us (I swear, when I close my eyes I can image mid-town Manhattan) we began by talking about the changes he's noticed in Dharamsala.
ITIM: When was the last time you where here in Dharamsala?
SAMDUP: I was here two and a half years ago though I lived in Dharamsala until 1980.
ITIM: What are your impressions about the changes that have taken place here?
SAMDUP: I don't really like the changes, but then it had to happen. Even when I lived here things were changing, but during the last twenty years things have changes so much. The beauty of the town I used to remember that is completely gone. With the prosperity that has come I've noticed that people's social lives have changed. Which is kind of sad. Now, everybody seems to have entertainment at home and they don't have much interaction. Before they had to do everything outside. Everybody lived in one room, so all social activies happened outside and people interacted and talked and a lot of socializing. These days hardly any. Everybody goes home and watches TV and VCR's and nothing much happens outside. Also, I find among some of the Tibetans a sense of competetiveness and doing better in business. Now people have more money and more material things so now their time is taken up with making money. I've seen this in other Tibetan communities especially where there are lots of tourists. Areas where there are not many tourists things haven't changed that much. But money coming in brings various opportunities to make money.
ITIM: How do you think this will affect the transfer back to Tibet. Assuming that many Tibetans return with some new values and you have a culture of people in Tibet that have not experienced this?
SAMDUP: It's going to be very interesting. Places like Lhasa and other major towns are going through similar changes, but I'm sure there are going to be some difficulties for the Tibetans going back from India or abroad and for the Tibetans in Tibet adjusting to these new Tibetans coming in with these new values. In the end, though, I'm sure these things will be worked out, and one thing His Holiness has made very clear is that Tibetans in exile will really have no say in the running of the future Tibet. He made this very clear a few years ago to the Tibetans in exile and everybody knows that.
ITIM: That could turn out to be quite a frustrating experience for the people in exile because they've had more of a taste of freedom and democracy and decision making.
SAMDUP:It would be, but on the other hand they would have the opportunity thatif they really didn't like it they could leave and live in India or thewest. But it really should be the Tibetans in Tibet who should run thecountry. If they prefer to live as communists or whatever, then so be it. No big deal. As long as Tibetans can run their own affairs that is all we are asking.
ITIM: Historically the monasteries where the hub of the community. Do you feel that will continue?
SAMDUP: Even here in exile many of the younger Tibetans feel that it is not correct that the monks and nuns should have two votes not one vote. For the parliment they can vote for the provincial representative plus the religious representative and many lay Tibetans feel that shouldn't be. In a democracy everyone should have one vote. It may change in a few years, but now it is like that. A lot of changes need to take place for sure.
ITIM: Such as?
SAMDUP: I personally had one experience. When I became member of parliment I really wanted to change the way the cabinet was selected. Right now, the nominations for cabinet ministers are given to the parliment by His Holiness. Then the parliment elects seven cabinet ministers. I don't know of any other democratic country where cabinet ministers are elected by parliment. My suggustion was that since we don't have different political parties the parliment should elect one person to be called the Chief of Cabinet or Prime Minister,and the parliment give this one person mandate to elect or nominate the rest of the cabinet. This person, obviously, would select people that he or she knows and they could work together to come up with an agenda and push for it. Right now we have seven people elected by the parliment and they were told to work together and it just doesn't work. Everybody has their own agenda. So I worked very hard on my idea and lobbied and lobbied and the last session when we took a vote we just lost by three votes. I'm still determined to do anything I can to make a change in the Tibetan Government In Exile (TGIE).
Whether we like it or not we have to face the fact that His Holiness is not going to be around forever. If we want to make a change, right now is the time to do. If things don't work out, as long as His Holiness is here, things will be OK. If we wait too long, and we try to make a change when His Holiness is not around, then if things don't work out there will be total chaos. Whatever we have done in the last thirty odd years will go down the drain, and we don't want that. This (change) is also what His Holiness wants.
Two years ago, the last session of parliment, He came down to parliment and He said to all the members that we've done a very good job for the last five years. He was very grateful, and just wanted to say one thing. He'd never been a politician and He's not interested in politics. The only reason He does is because right now He has a name and when He travels around He does this. He's comfortable giving religious teaching and all He wants to do is just practice and give teachings. He told us that this day to day political stuff, you all should be able to care for it. You should function as if The Dalai Lama were dead. To me, He couldn't have said it more clearly: just give me a break, it's time you guys did it. It's unfortunate that the vote took place the day before he made the statement. I'm convinced if it had been the other way around we would have won and things would be different.
ITIM: The issue has not been back on the table?
No, the issue has not been back on the table. I'm thinking maybe we should start some sort of dialogue within the Tibetan communities abroad and then formally submit some sort of proposal to the parliment so that we can talk about it again. It really has to happen. Whenever I visit Tibetan communities in North America a common complaint is that it's still the same old people that have been around for twenty years (in the government). People like us, they say, are never going to have a group that thinks like us. So another idea is that maybe for one term we do away with the charter and open the whole election process of the cabinet. For this term we invite all Tibetans to apply who feel that they would make good candidates for cabinet posts. Somebody could write in from Boisie, Idaho and say I want to be the Minister of International Relations because this is my background, this is what I want to do and that kind of thing. Right now there are no new ideas and each day just passes away and future of Tibet, where we are going and what we are doing, it all has to come down from The Dalai Lama and the cabinet is following this. What we need is a cabinet who comes up with these things and then go for it.
ITIM: How is the media in the Tibetan community doing? We've heard complaints that there is no edge or controversy?
SAMDUP: I think they are doing a good job, but there isn't much controversy in many of them, especially the ones run by the Department of Information and International Relations (DIIR). The Tibet Times will sometimes have some controversial stuff and the Tibetan Review sometimes, but otherwise ther is not much. I think it's important to have a radio station like in Dharamsala where people can call in and voice their opinions. A lot of people are frustrated and some people feel that it's too bad the hunger strike was stopped, some people feel it's OK because we got some assurances those kind of discussions could take place over the radio and it could be very lively and very interesting and that would give the other media, Voice of America, Radio Free Asia, Voice of Tibet, some stories from those perspectives.
ITIM: How do you interpret the role of the hunger strike in the history of this movement?
SAMDUP: One thing I've always thought that freedom is not something that we can just get by talking and writting. We have to do something more and we did with the hunger strike, and I think that it opened up all of people's eyes. I think Thupten Ngodup had a real impact on the Tibetan people. I've noticed the Tibetans have his picture on their alter. No Tibetan lay person has ever had that kind of status.
ITIM: Seems like the hunger strike resulted in people dropping their disagreements, and the tension between the four different paths seemed to lessen.
SAMDUP: Oh, yes. That became so clear, and that was also not important when Ngodup did that. Somebody told me that he said this is the only thing I've got. I don't believe in taking someone else's life. This is all I have and it's the most precious thing.
ITIM: How do you feel about the hunger strike being put on hold?
SAMDUP: TYC has recieved some assurances from politicians saying they will do something, but I doubt anything will come out of it. There is some sweet words here and there and that is about it. That is why I personally feel that there are six people who sat for 48 days and one person sacrificed his life. The momentum was such that it should have continued until the United Nations had to come out and support. If it had gone on, after a while, the world community would have to do something.
We have this history of the last 40 years of this non-violent movement lead by The Dalai Lama, and all of a sudden, I saw editorials and articles very sympathetic. It wasn't just about these six people but the question of what is better violence or non-violence. I don't believe that they have done this to defy The Dalai Lama's wishes, they are totally frustrated. It is an act of desperation.
Now the question is if the Tibetans do chose a path of violence in their struggle and if more people die or an acts of terrorism are carried out, who is to blame? As far as I'm concerned it is the international community. All of their sweet words and nice resolutions on Tibet, yet no one has come up with a concrete offer and in fact the whole community is failing The Dalai Lama in front of His own people. They are proving The Dalai Lama wrong. If the Tibetans choose violence the loss would not be for the Tibetans it would be for the international community. In the future who is going to follow the path of non-violence. They'll say look at the Tibetans where did they get? It's in the interest of everybody to make sure that the Tibetans succeed.
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